cowheelfan
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Post by cowheelfan on Oct 26, 2015 17:11:38 GMT -5
Hi all,
I was just curious to get some other perspectives on this. I know I've read in other threads that GHO and B/P seem to be generally good picks for the bonus rounds, but for those of you who have been on the show and made it to the Bonus Round, did you know the letters you were going to pick beforehand? Did you decide on them during the taping? Or did you change them once you saw part of your puzzle?
I guess what made me think of this more was after seeing Sheri's puzzle last week. If you were in the audience waiting to tape, and you saw the 4 M's show up in her puzzle, would you be less likely to pick M as your own BR consonant choice if you were taping right after her, since it showed up a lot in that puzzle, or would it have no effect on you either way?
I just wanted to get some of your thoughts on this out of curiosity... Cheers!
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mechamind
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Post by mechamind on Oct 26, 2015 17:51:58 GMT -5
While not a contestant, I still feel optimistic about FPVI becoming the new BGHO.
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emilburp
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Post by emilburp on Oct 26, 2015 18:33:46 GMT -5
As I said in many interviews and told many future contestants, it's always a good idea to have a set 3 consonants and a vowel (add a back-up letter in case of Wild Card), that way you know exactly what you're working with on the used letter board. In my case, my letters are HMDO (with B as a back-up [that would've helped during my puzzle ]). Even though I know part of the solution, I always go with my 'go-to' letters and it seemed to have helped! As for the seeing certain letters pop up during my fellow contestants' bonus rounds on tape date, I wouldn't change any letters either way. It seems like Wheel has been unpredictable with their BR puzzles especially during 'budget-fitting-BR-time.' If I were to do anything different, however, I would've studied up on smaller 4-5 letter words that do not have any RSTLNE or my go-to letters, but I didn't need that I guess
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Post by pricemodel1997 on Oct 26, 2015 19:48:42 GMT -5
Although not a contestant I generally go with CDMA and P because those are the next most common after the RSTLNE
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MarioGS
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Post by MarioGS on Oct 26, 2015 19:52:39 GMT -5
Although not a contestant I generally go with CDMA and P because those are the next most common after the RSTLNE And that's why the show avoids using too many of those letters more than half the time these days. Also, H is actually next in line in terms of popularity. It's actually in the same league as R and L.
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emilburp
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Post by emilburp on Oct 26, 2015 20:36:29 GMT -5
I feel like you can look at it a few ways. There's a statistical side in which go with BGHO as the statistically most common BR letters in play and hope that Wheel is feeling statistical that episode. There's a cryptographic side in which go with CDMA to knock out the more common letters to determine the rest. There's a rogue side in which you go outside of the deviant and just try to knock out the semi-obscure letters which I'll say mechamind 's FPVI can come into play. I guess you just need to find out what what your niche is in terms of puzzle solving.
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cowheelfan
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Post by cowheelfan on Oct 26, 2015 21:48:48 GMT -5
I guess you just need to find out what what your niche is in terms of puzzle solving. Indeed! I'll have to think about that one... thanks to all for the responses!
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Post by Flerbert419 on Oct 26, 2015 22:01:18 GMT -5
My strategy (despite never having been on the show or solving any infant related bonus rounds) is completely puzzle dependent.
If I know for sure what some letters are ( _N_ ending; T_E), I wouldn't pick them. They seem like traps most of the time and don't appear in the rest of the puzzle.
The rest of the letters I pick are trying to eliminate choices and figure out either beginnings or ends of words. For example, if I see _N, I'm either picking I or O as my vowel to determine if it's IN or ON. If there's a word that ends in E_, I'm probably going to pick a D and hope to hit on something there. I'm asking myself where the blanks are what possible letters it could be and trying to narrow it down.
I wouldn't go out on a limb and pick something strange like J or Z. If I had to choose letters completely blind, I would go with BGPO.
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mechamind
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Post by mechamind on Oct 26, 2015 22:23:31 GMT -5
Let's say you have the answer with RSTLNE. You pick the three and a vowel, but it turns out your intended guess was incorrect. What then?
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cowheelfan
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Post by cowheelfan on Oct 26, 2015 22:33:37 GMT -5
but it turns out your intended guess was incorrect. What then? That's a great question. Every so often while watching that happens to me... sometimes what happens is a letter I had in my guess ends up popping up somewhere else in the puzzle than where I had thought it was originally. I guess in that scenario you have to just do your best with what you have. I remember (I think this was only a week or two ago) I saw _ _ _ _LE and thought to myself "Maybe it's Puzzle!" But I think the thing to do there would be to not call the Z unless you were completely sure, whereas a P could help & show up elsewhere, even if it turns out not to be what you thought it was.
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mechamind
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Post by mechamind on Oct 26, 2015 22:38:06 GMT -5
The previous puzzle was A HUGE GAMBLE. Maybe that was the one.
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Post by tlc38tlc38 on Oct 26, 2015 22:48:34 GMT -5
^I kept thinking that puzzle was A HUGE BUBBLE and it would've made sense too.
Most of the time I stick with BGHO but sometimes I switch it up with BHPO.
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Post by whammy007 on Oct 26, 2015 22:58:46 GMT -5
I haven't been a contestant either, but I've always got a spare $0.02 to throw in on this subject...
Actually, about a cent and a half of that two cents will be borrowed from somebody else, specifically Wayoshi. Referring to data he's collected as part of his WOFTracker project, we have a breakdown of the percentage of the time each letter appeared in puzzles from Seasons 29 to 31, a sample size of 585 Bonus Rounds. I'm going to paraphrase them a bit, but if you want to see the data in full, just check out our Links page.
O - in 414 puzzles (71% of sample) I - 372 (64%) A - 369 (63%) U - 263 (45%) --------------------------------------- H - 251 (43%) G - 241 (41%) P - 222 (38%) C - 199 (34%) B/D (tied) - 194 (33%) Y - 179 (31%) W - 171 (29%) F - 151 (26%) K - 139 (24%) M - 127 (22%) V - 113 (19%) J - 37 (6%) Q - 30 (5%) X - 24 (4%) Z - 18 (3%)
So it's clear that there's statistical support for BGHO - you get the best vowel and three of the six top consonants. CDMA, on the other hand, is merely okay - third-best vowel, two of the six best consonants, and M is well down the list. In fact, WKYI, which I sometimes employ when I feel the writers have employed a tricky adjective-noun combo, is nearly as good as CDMA - W/Y are just below C/D, almost anything (including K) is better than M, and I just edges out A in the vowel department.
Honestly though, I don't endorse using one set package of picks to always plug in no matter the puzzle. As far as I know (and someone can correct me on this), you're not on the clock when picking, so you can take that couple extra seconds to decide what fits best in the unfilled blanks. Sometimes CDMA might be a winner after all, or maybe WKYI will fill in everything. You have to use your best judgment and your letter sense to see you through.
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Oct 26, 2015 23:16:59 GMT -5
I think I would pick letters that I don't think are there. On the other hand, if you are consistent with your picks (like Emil said), you immediately know what you're working with. (For instance, in the games I play online, I always pick CPDA, so if they're not there, I know the other letters to think of right away by muscle memory). But, CPDA usually always works in the video games, but not on the show (seems they don't write BR-specific puzzles online). So, I don't know. I'm very mathematical/logical, so I'm thinking I'd go with BGHO (oh what PGHO??) no matter what, but if it's a "FUN & GAMES" or "WAYD" or "PHRASE" that ends in _N_, then a G (or an I) would be a waste...but I've also seen puzzles where it's not. Like, if you figure out the multiple (take B or G in Emil's famed puzzle for instance), then the puzzle is likely yours. I've thought about this a lot. I just hope I get a chance to use it. Thanks for starting this topic.
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Post by mountainmanzach on Oct 27, 2015 19:29:52 GMT -5
Well I couldn't quite let this go, and now I've spent far too much on it. Picking a letter that's a non-dud is a start, but you also want to consider how much the letter will help you solve the puzzle. I used WayoshiM's s29-31 tables to create scores for each letter: duds are worth 0, singles worth 1, doubles worth 2, ... Here are the results over all vowels: LETTER | SCORE | O | 659 | E | 561 | A | 535 | I | 519 | U | 309 |
So O is the undisputed queen of the vowels, even ahead of E (which is unsurprising, given that they want to give puzzles with few Es). Consonants are basically exactly in line with the frequency analysis: H = 314, G = 281, P = 265, D = 233, B = 231, C = 223; all the rest are under 200. Now the more interesting analysis for me is in the "bang for your buck" metric. If your letter is in the puzzle, how much does it help you? Or, more concretely, how many spaces do you get if your letter is in the puzzle? X and Q are big losers: if they are in the puzzle, you'll only get one space. The big winner turns out to be Z: it's only in 18/585 puzzles, but 7/18 times it exists as a double, making the expected number of spaces revealed 1.389. The order is a bit different looking at consonants this way: H = 1.251, D = 1.201, P = 1.194, F = 1.192, B = 1.191, G = 1.166, C = 1.121; all the rest are 1.10 or under. (O wins here too with a whopping 1.592, far ahead of the next closest, A, with 1.450) So this speaks to 2 slightly different strategies. First, we have "Maximize Non-Duds," or MAD. With MAD, the goal is to get as many correct letters as possible. Second, we have "Get Letters And Destroy," or GLAD. (I admit to backronyming the second strategy) With GLAD, the goal is to fill up as many spaces as possible given that you can only select 4 letters. MAD strategy: HGPO(D) strict GLAD strategy: ZHDO(P) realistic GLAD strategy: HDPO(F) I say that because clearly Z is high risk/high reward. If it's in the puzzle, it's nearly a 50-50 shot there'll be 2, but you know, then you're the person who picked Z in the bonus round. Parentheses signify wild card selections. While I thought these strategies might yield different results, they turn out to be shockingly similar. The MAD strategy filled 32.6% of the non-RSTLNE spaces (37.6% with the WC), and GLAD filled 31.5% (35.4% with WC). That comes from the fact that F is far more likely to occur multiple times if it appears, relative to its frequency in the puzzles. So my conclusion is that at least based on the past 3 seasons, H, P, and O are must select letters. The choice of G, D, or F as your final selection would all be reasonable depending on how much risk you're willing to subject yourself to. (Of course there are MASSIVE caveats to this analysis. I don't have the actual puzzle data, so the "% filled in" numbers are on average, and would assuredly change if I looked at the success of each strategy puzzle-by-puzzle. Similarly, I'd love to look at which letters are likely to co-occur, which might change what the best strategy is. As in, maybe H and G are unlikely to appear separately. In which case, it might make more sense to hedge your bets by not selecting both.)
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luckyinmsp
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Post by luckyinmsp on Oct 27, 2015 21:40:58 GMT -5
I taped the first episode of the day so didn't have a luxury of earlier bonus rounds, but being an accountant I knew I had to play the odds if i made it to the bonus round. I went with BGHO + D for my wild card and those ended up being the perfect letters for HIGHLY ORGANIZED. I agree that it's good to have 4 letters in your mind as a starting point and maybe adjust if you feel inclined. But being nervous it would be easy to blurt out a letter you didn't initially want to, so it's good to be prepared.
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Post by WooWho on Oct 27, 2015 23:58:54 GMT -5
I'll be perfectly honest. When I found myself faced with picking my 3 and a vowel, I honestly had no idea what to pick. The Wild Card was never in play so I didn't have to worry about a fourth.
For the uninitiated, this is what RSTLNE gave me:
_ / S _ _ _ _ _ _ R E PERSON RSTLNE
Not exactly indicative of any obvious letter patterns. The only thing I had to go on was that initial letter at the beginning and the -RE at the end. Here's what was going through my head...
"Well, what's that first letter likely going to be? A. Are there going to be any more in the other word? Probably not. So don't call A.
What ending makes the most sense: -IRE, -ORE, or -URE? If they were feeling really dickish I suppose they could've had -GRE or even -YRE, but there are only so many words that end like that and start with S. Frankly, while -URE could be plausible, -ORE sounds like the biggest possibility. So I have my vowel.
"Now what about the three consonants?"
I'd like to think my internal monologue went something like this:
"Well, if it ends in -ORE, maybe there's an M right before it (-MORE). Not sure what the full word could be, but hey, it's either that or SM- something. Better cover my bases with SP- as well and hope it's enough to set off a lightbulb somewhere. As for the last one...D is relatively common in PERSON puzzles, let's throw that in there too."
In reality, it was something like this:
"I have no blinking clue what to call here. Let's just pick three plausible random consonants and hope for the best. And don't call A."
Luckily for me, I called the right stuff!
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Post by WarioSajak on Oct 28, 2015 15:47:27 GMT -5
I haven't been a contestant either, but for a long while in the recaps I kept track of what letter combos were the optimal strategy in the Bonus Round...and sometimes the best letters to call were weird sets that most contestants probably wouldn't touch, especially all at once. (And other times, puzzles would have so many different consonants and vowels that there'd be no real "I'm sure you'll win with this" set of picks.) "Well, what's that first letter likely going to be? A. Are there going to be any more in the other word? Probably not. So don't call A. [...] "I have no blinking clue what to call here. Let's just pick three plausible random consonants and hope for the best. And don't call A." Yeah, Wheel seems to have done those "trap A" bonus puzzles pretty often from about 2000-05, evidently to trick players into calling the obvious letter that's nowhere else in the puzzle. In fact, A SOPHOMORE is one of only two instances of the redundant A since A GULF in 2005 (the other being A FOREIGN LANGUAGE in 2010, although at least calling A is actually helpful there). So yeah, if you get to the Bonus Round and the first word is a single letter (and it's not Phrase or Quotation, in which cases it could easily be an I), it's almost certainly gonna be an A. And chances are that it won't help elsewhere.
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Post by mountainmanzach on Oct 28, 2015 17:32:45 GMT -5
I taped the first episode of the day so didn't have a luxury of earlier bonus rounds Interesting. Are there patterns that emerge throughout a day? Or were you more so looking to see others' strategies?
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ld
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Post by ld on Oct 29, 2015 5:36:02 GMT -5
I think people underestimate the six letters they are given because they are vital clues to solving the puzzle, both when they show up and when they don't.
Consider this: If the puzzle is two words and only an "E" shows up as the letter in the second word, do you benefit more from that "E" you are given or from the "R, S, T, L, N" that are missing from the puzzle?
Now, I understand that on-stage people don't really have time to "analyze" a puzzle but it's certainly a plus to practice to have a "sense" of which letters you should choose based on how many letters show up at the start while keeping in mind those that don't show. Recommendations like BGHO and CDMA are given because they generally tie in well together but those are just guidelines and not absolute choices. As always, it depends on the puzzle but knowing a puzzle's "overall look" definitely helps.
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