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Post by vicgchad07 on Sept 25, 2018 9:12:35 GMT -5
For the past few seasons, I've been reading comments on the Internet going "Oh, that was a forced loss" in reference to a legitimately tough but solvable Bonus Round puzzle being lost.
Well, kiddy-boos, can I let you all in on a little secret?
Bonus Round losses are NEVER "forced" [sic].
Wanna know why?
Forcing a loss would constitute rigging, a big no-no in game shows. If you want to know more, try talking to someone who works for CBS' Broadcast Standards & Practices department.
In addition, the Bonus Rounds of past nighttime seasons had low wins just like newer seasons -- short, one- or two-word puzzles of yesteryear were just as tough as the large puzzles of today; do I see you lot complaining about "forced losses" [sic] in older seasons? Noooooooo. That would just make it all too conveeeeeeeeeeeeenient and serve to further prove that Bonus Round losses are NEVER "forced" [sic].
If you don't believe me, then lemme share a little story...
Years ago, Executive Producer Harry Friedman worked on a show (not Wheel of Fortune) for one of the networks (not CBS) for the man who owned the show (not Merv Griffin).
It was nearing the end of the second day of discussions on security measures. Harry wasn't in the business at the time of the Quiz Show Scandals, so he thought this meeting was between men of mutually-acknowledged probity -- "us against them", you could say.
Then, the discussion took this turn...
OWNER: "Let's give the winner of the game a lie-detector test to determine whether he or she had been given the answers. We don't have to test the losers because if they had been given the answers, they would have in fact won the game." NETWORK VP: "Sounds good to me...but if we did that, then the ACLU would be all over us like a tent." OWNER: "Who cares what that inconsequential lot of radicals--hey, wait a minute... Harry is the only one on our staff who has access to all the game material; let's give him a lie-detector test after the show." NETWORK VP: "No...lie-detector tests take too long; they would extend the studio day and cost the network tons of money." OWNER: "Then let's sequester Harry in a motel, constantly under guard. He can have his meals brought to him. His wife can visit once a day." NETWORK VP: "Sounds good to me...eh-heh, uhhh...nothing personal, Harry."
Whatever happened to "us against them?" Harry thought to himself. This was them against me! ...He was offended. They were discussing him in the third-person AND impugning his integrity in the bargain. After he calmed down, he realized that there was nothing personal involved. The network VP was just doing his job. If anything dishonest did occur, he wanted to be able to testify in front of his bosses, the district attorney, the FCC, and the inevitable Congressional investigative committee that he had taken all possible steps to prevent such dishonesty from happening.
As it turns out, Harry Friedman was not locked in a motel. But the show WAS produced under tight security, as are Wheel of Fortune and Jeopardy!.
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MarioGS
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Post by MarioGS on Sept 25, 2018 9:14:00 GMT -5
. . .
Nice fanfiction?
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Post by vicgchad07 on Sept 25, 2018 9:16:34 GMT -5
As a diehard Wheel Watcher, I resent that remark. |
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Post by vicgchad07 on Sept 25, 2018 9:20:37 GMT -5
With my thoughts being made, you folks say "there are forced losses"?
Prove it.
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Post by MarioGS on Sept 25, 2018 9:24:34 GMT -5
Here's a good example from last season.
Could it have been solved? Of course. Was it going to be solved? Very likely not.
Number one: Who calls W and K? Number two: Who refers to those things in tandem? Number three: How many of your average contestants actually know in those ten seconds that more sensible phrases can't be the answer because they have letters that have already been debunked? That's something we see happen just about every other episode.
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Post by vicgchad07 on Sept 25, 2018 9:30:40 GMT -5
Here's a good example from last season. Could it have been solved? Of course. Was it going to be solved? Very likely not. Number one: Who calls W and K? Number two: Who refers to those things in tandem? Number three: How many of your average contestants actually know in those ten seconds that more sensible phrases can't be the answer because they have letters that have already been debunked? That's something we see happen just about every other episode. That's bologna. It doesn't make sense. Pat Sajak put it best: "If the letters aren't there, they aren't there." Doesn't mean it's "a forced loss" [ sic]. |
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WarioSajak
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Post by WarioSajak on Sept 25, 2018 10:56:06 GMT -5
In addition, the Bonus Rounds of past nighttime seasons had low wins just like newer seasons -- short, one- or two-word puzzles of yesteryear were just as tough as the large puzzles of today; do I see you lot complaining about "forced losses" [ sic] in older seasons? Noooooooo. That would just make it all too conveeeeeeeeeeeeenient and serve to further prove that Bonus Round losses are NEVER "forced" [ sic]. I've griped plenty of times about how the pre-Friedman era had stupidly hard bonus puzzles, but here's the difference: if Merv and Nancy Jones wanted a hard Bonus Round, they used short puzzles and/or brought out Slang. Harry, on the other hand, tends to use adjectives (such as FINICKY BABY and WILDLY HAPPY GUY from Season 30), weird word combinations (like the aforementioned WOKS AND PANS), and/or the least-common letters (such as pretty much any puzzle with JAZZ or QUIZ; heck, using KAYAK saved Harry $1.1 million last season!). Merv and Nancy's tough puzzles also, by all indication, popped up much less often than Harry's do. Your using "kiddy-boos" and stretching out "no" and "convenient" doesn't exactly endear me to your remarks, either. Years ago, Executive Producer Harry Friedman worked on a show (not Wheel of Fortune) for one of the networks (not CBS) for the man who owned the show (not Merv Griffin). Name the show, network, and owner. Come on, don't be shy.  Because honestly, right now I don't believe a word of this story and I don't see any reason for you to be so vague (lest someone try to fact-check you, perhaps?). And even then, the scandal investigations showed that some losers were involved in the rigging (Herb Stempel being the most well-known example), plus polygraph tests are notoriously unreliable to the point they've long since been barred from being used as evidence in court trials. |
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Post by vicgchad07 on Sept 25, 2018 12:09:25 GMT -5
In addition, the Bonus Rounds of past nighttime seasons had low wins just like newer seasons -- short, one- or two-word puzzles of yesteryear were just as tough as the large puzzles of today; do I see you lot complaining about "forced losses" [ sic] in older seasons? Noooooooo. That would just make it all too conveeeeeeeeeeeeenient and serve to further prove that Bonus Round losses are NEVER "forced" [ sic]. I've griped plenty of times about how the pre-Friedman era had stupidly hard bonus puzzles, but here's the difference: if Merv and Nancy Jones wanted a hard Bonus Round, they used short puzzles and/or brought out Slang. Harry, on the other hand, tends to use adjectives (such as FINICKY BABY and WILDLY HAPPY GUY from Season 30), weird word combinations (like the aforementioned WOKS AND PANS), and/or the least-common letters (such as pretty much any puzzle with JAZZ or QUIZ; heck, using KAYAK saved Harry $1.1 million last season!). Merv and Nancy's tough puzzles also, by all indication, popped up much less often than Harry's do. Your using "kiddy-boos" and stretching out "no" and "convenient" doesn't exactly endear me to your remarks, either. Years ago, Executive Producer Harry Friedman worked on a show (not Wheel of Fortune) for one of the networks (not CBS) for the man who owned the show (not Merv Griffin). Name the show, network, and owner. Come on, don't be shy.  Because honestly, right now I don't believe a word of this story and I don't see any reason for you to be so vague (lest someone try to fact-check you, perhaps?). And even then, the scandal investigations showed that some losers were involved in the rigging (Herb Stempel being the most well-known example), plus polygraph tests are notoriously unreliable to the point they've long since been barred from being used as evidence in court trials. I'm not 42 years old. I'm not 5 foot 3. And I'm not a CBS or Sony employee.
But I DO know when you're pulling my leg.
Here's an older Bonus Round puzzle for you. The category is PHRASE. R, S, T, L, N, E -- and just those letters. S L _ _ _ _ _ _ _
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Post by MarioGS on Sept 25, 2018 12:46:37 GMT -5
Here's an older Bonus Round puzzle for you. The category is PHRASE. R, S, T, L, N, E -- and just those letters. S L _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Without any prior knowledge, I immediately came up with the answer: SLAPHAPPY This would not be done as a modern-day bonus puzzle for two reasons. One: it's only one word, which is now extremely rare. We only had two one-word bonus puzzles in Season 35. Two: The other letters make it too solvable. With an H, multiple P's, and the only unique vowel being A... ...the chances of the puzzle ending with a win are pretty favorable despite seeming difficult at the outset. Further, that puzzle does not contain any of the six difficult consonants that have plagued the Bonus Round recently: JKQVWZ. Since this past January, most bonus puzzles have at least one of these thrown in somewhere. And so far in Season 36, every single bonus puzzle has had at least one of them. If that word were used today, it would be used as an adjective followed by a noun that contains one of the above consonants, such as CROWD or KID, or QUITE added in front. |
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Post by WarioSajak on Sept 25, 2018 12:48:58 GMT -5
Without any prior knowledge, I immediately came up with the answer: SLAPHAPPY Same thing I came up with, though admittedly I had to search the History Wiki to find that. And to add onto your (excellent) points, that was from Season 7, when the show introduced the W-H-E-E-L envelopes and were clearly trying to figure out how difficult to make the puzzles. I'm not 42 years old. I'm not 5 foot 3. And I'm not a CBS or Sony employee. Ooh, are we playing "Two Truths & A Lie"? If so, I'll say that last statement is a lie. In all seriousness, though, as MarioGS pointed out to you already we've studied the show's puzzles for ages and have gathered a good understanding of which ones are pretty clearly set up to save money. Casual Wheel watchers notice those kinds of puzzles, too. [EDIT: Fixed mangled second half of post. Not sure how it happened, but hey...] |
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SmashWhammy
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Post by SmashWhammy on Sept 25, 2018 12:49:38 GMT -5
it's more extra hard difficulty than actually forcing them
different show, but ask Roger Dobkowitz on facebook about this kinda thing (the former Price is right producer)
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Post by wheellover65 on Sept 25, 2018 13:04:15 GMT -5
Ok, if you don't think there's a way to "force" a loss without rigging please solve this puzzle.
_ _ _ _ _
ON THE MAP
RSTLNE CDMA
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SmashWhammy
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Post by SmashWhammy on Sept 25, 2018 13:06:19 GMT -5
note the use of quote marks on "forced" here as well
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Post by vicgchad07 on Sept 25, 2018 13:30:25 GMT -5
it's more extra hard difficulty than actually forcing them
different show, but ask Roger Dobkowitz on facebook about this kinda thing (the former Price is right producer)
See, smashwhammy gets it. Losses aren't "forced"; the puzzles are just very difficult and contestants are under the pressure of bright lights, running time, and Kool & the Gang's "I'm a Wheel Watcher". |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2018 13:42:05 GMT -5
And for more fun, try to solve this puzzle if you really don’t think that there’s a way to ensure “forced losses”.
_ _ _ _ _ N G
WHAT ARE YOU DOING?
RSTLNE.......BGHO
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2018 13:47:21 GMT -5
Ok, if you don't think there's a way to "force" a loss without rigging please solve this puzzle. _ _ _ _ _ ON THE MAP RSTLNE CDMA It took me a while, but I can narrow it down to this. ZZYZX |
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Post by MarioGS on Sept 25, 2018 13:57:45 GMT -5
^ Well, they're never going to go that far.
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Post by WarioSajak on Sept 25, 2018 13:59:56 GMT -5
Losses aren't "forced"; the puzzles are just very difficult and contestants are under the pressure of bright lights, running time, There's a difference between the natural pressures of being on a game show and having the deck (sometimes rather blatantly) stacked against you. Or, to put it another way, there's being difficult while still giving the contestant a fighting chance and then there's being so difficult that several people wonder if Friedman took inspiration from the harder puzzles used on this site's Daily Puzzle Game. "Well yeah but that guy Emil solved NEW BABY BUGGY with just the first two letters!" Yeah, but he was/is a longtime member here and thus knew about those kinds of puzzles before getting on the show. Not to mention that there was a noticeable delay in the show toggling the "You won!" stuff after he solved. and Kool & the Gang's "I'm a Wheel Watcher". ...What are you talking about? I don't remember anyone here mentioning that song in relation to tapings. |
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Post by wheellover65 on Sept 25, 2018 14:37:53 GMT -5
Ok, if you don't think there's a way to "force" a loss without rigging please solve this puzzle. _ _ _ _ _ ON THE MAP RSTLNE CDMA It took me a while, but I can narrow it down to this. ZZYZX If there was anyone who could solve that puzzle it would be someone here. And they did. And while the show would never go that far, only the most advanced Wheel of Fortune player could get them, and most likely not in 10 seconds! |
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Post by vicgchad07 on Sept 25, 2018 14:43:51 GMT -5
Losses aren't "forced"; the puzzles are just very difficult and contestants are under the pressure of bright lights, running time, There's a difference between the natural pressures of being on a game show and having the deck (sometimes rather blatantly) stacked against you. Or, to put it another way, there's being difficult while still giving the contestant a fighting chance and then there's being so difficult that several people wonder if Friedman took inspiration from the harder puzzles used on this site's Daily Puzzle Game. "Well yeah but that guy Emil solved NEW BABY BUGGY with just the first two letters!" Yeah, but he was/is a longtime member here and thus knew about those kinds of puzzles before getting on the show. Not to mention that there was a noticeable delay in the show toggling the "You won!" stuff after he solved. and Kool & the Gang's "I'm a Wheel Watcher". ...What are you talking about? I don't remember anyone here mentioning that song in relation to tapings. 
I do this out of love... 
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